Maer: The thesis is that there is a new moment happening in regards to celebrity, that there was a time when fame and represented accomplishment and stalent, and the new fame is about packages and savvy marketing.

Tina: And you see this as a galloping trend?

Maer: Very galloping, and has galloped from entertainment to politics as well.

Tina: I guess a prime examp cell Britney Spears reality show. Her new husband co-stars with her in it, and it really reaches new heights of -- what do you make television?

James: First of all, I'd like to get my I.Q. Points after watching this, i felt them dribbling out of my ears. In a funny way, what Britney spears has done is they've worked off the madonna matrix. This was a sort of almost dumb trailer version of truth or dare. But where madonna is surrounded with warren beatty and there's a sort of high level of crackle. This is just a kid running around with a camera, and you're watching it thinking, first of all, learn how not to shake it. Secondly, why are you pointing it so the nose

Tina: Isn't that part of it where it's a fake --

James: It's fake revelation because the fact is, you actually don't learn anything about her off stage life. There's nothing really revealed except she's silly. The funny thing is, they've gone from no talent to personality, but they don't even have personalities, either.

Tina: Stanley, one of the points she's made in the radar piece is the sense that chauncee gardner, the whole idea was unwittedingly people imagined that he had this philosophical depth and importance, and yet today we don't even care if chauncee gardner is anybody. What's that about?

Stanley: I'm trying to figure it out. Part of it is the fact dha many people who are celebrities have never had a word that's interesting. Part of the projection of being a celebrity is to make them seem interesting and to give them habits to send them out hunlting or doing something. Ask then you had rock'n'roll where people couldn't sing. And now they don't have to sing because you've got a machine. And then you have these things on mtv where you actually get to see them, unfortunately. And then they're really dull. And not only dull, but dumb.

Tina: How do you feel about the Britney spears? You're a filmmaker. You're a documentary filmmaker.

Alexandra: I support the young woman with the camera. I'll tell you why. If you go to the website, the reason she started this show is because she was tired of the media coming to her life, so she wanted to make her own story. So it's her defiance against everybody else. Maybe it's not interesting. Maybe we don't want to watch it, but it's not for us. It's for the teeny boppers, and apparently they care what sexual positions she's in.

Tina: My 14-year-old said, mommy, if you want to watch this, it's up to you, but I'm out of here.

Maer: I think one of the things we've noticed, recently in culture is -- there's been a really pronounced shift in the culture into showcasing thing tac are more red stated.

Tina: I don't know if it's a red state phenomenon, actually. I just feel that she -- what's interesting to me about it is almost a dedication in this move tow make herself seem as unattracted and i have unlikeable and unappealing as possible.

Maer: Anti-elitist. It's very successful now.

Tina: Where do you think it's going, the trend, actually?